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The queer liberation movement has impacted ALL of our lives in both obvious and subtle ways.
We are celebrating the 50 year anniversary of the Stonewall Riots by looking at how the queer liberation movement has generated waves of social change in just one generation. We look at the historical roots of homophobia and how the early gay rights movement began to confront the institutions of power that defined homosexuality as a sin, a crime and an illness.
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Want to learn more about the gay liberation movement? Making Gay History is one of our favorite podcasts and features first person accounts from activists who were on the front lines of the movement.
Transcript for Podcast Episode : Your Sexuality, Somewhere Over The Rainbow
Podcast transcripts are generated with love by humans, and thus may not be 100% accurate. Time stamps are included so you can cross reference or jump to any point in the podcast episode above. THANKS to the members of our Pleasure Pod for helping make transcripts and the rest of our free offerings happen! If you love what we offer, find ways to show your love and dive deeper with us here: SHOW SOME LOVE
Chris Rose: 00:01 Welcome to Speaking of Sex with the Pleasure Mechanics. I’m Chris.
Charlotte Rose: 00:05 I’m Charlotte.
Chris Rose: 00:06 We are the Pleasure Mechanics and on this podcast we have explicit and soulful conversations about every facet of human sexuality. Come on over to PleasureMechanics.com where you will find our complete podcast archive awaiting your listening pleasure. And while you’re there, go to PleasureMechanics.com/free and enroll in the erotic essentials. It is our free online course. It is available for you whenever you wish to get started, it’s at PleasureMechanics.com/free. If you love this show and want to support our work in the world, go to PleasureMechanics.com/love to show us some love and support the show with a monthly donation.
Chris Rose: 00:55 All right, on this podcast episode, we are going to be celebrating Pride. It is June, 2019. It is Gay Pride month, all around the world and this year it is a special one because we are celebrating 50 years since Stonewall. Stonewall was in June, 1969, and it is remembered as the riot that sparked the modern gay rights movement. So we want to pay homage to Stonewall, celebrate the last 50 years of social and cultural change in the field of sexuality and gender and invite you into reflecting how this gay liberation movement has impacted your life, your gender expression, your sex life, no matter how you identify.
Chris Rose: 01:46 When we look at the past 50 years of sexual liberation, it has impacted us all and by locating ourselves in that perhaps we can envision what we want to create for the next 50 years.
Charlotte Rose: 01:58 That is such a beautiful invitation and there is so much there. It is so powerful to consider how dramatically life has changed for many in the last 50 years and how small actions have shifted culture but also how large social and political actions have shifted the landscape for us all.
Chris Rose: 02:20 And we’re using the Stonewall riots as a point of reflection on the past 50 years, but we’re also going to think about the greater arc of sexual liberation that’s been happening over the past many hundreds of years and situating ourselves in this landscape.
Chris Rose: 02:38 A few days ago, I recorded like an hour and 20 minute long global history of sexuality, that took you from cave paintings to Stonewall. I didn’t do as good of a job as I wanted to do, so I left that on the editing room floor. I want to make it a little more succinct and I want to just say that we need to remember that for thousands of years, since Hebrew law, since the rise of monotheistic religions, homosexuality has been not only a sin, but a crime. And a crime punishable by death. A crime punishable by public execution and extreme versions of this. And in my longer history, I took you into some of those grisly details. What we often think of as the witch burnings, in Europe, during the Middle Ages, also involved the rounding up of gender deviance and known homosexuals, and burning them in public executions.
Chris Rose: 03:48 Those public executions never stopped, right. There are still places in the world now where people are executed for being gay, for having homosexual sex, for participating in certain sex acts that are not condoned by their culture. So, let’s just take that in, that this is our legacy and that doesn’t only affect gay people because the persecution of gay people and gender deviance creates a cage, a box, a set of norms that everyone has to be inside of, everyone has to participate in for the system to work. So let’s just honor the thousands of years of gender deviance, of sexual rebels, of wayward women, of people who have been persecuted for stepping outside the very, very small sex norms and gender roles that were prescribed and allowed to exist.
Chris Rose: 04:51 Men had to be a very specific way. Women had to be a very specific way. Woman’s role was in reproduction only. And we need to remember that for thousands of years, under European monotheistic culture, the only sex that is allowed and celebrated is reproductive sex within marriage. And sodomy, gay sex, especially anal sex, is where a lot of this gaze is targeted, but it’s also on gender deviance. It’s on acting outside of your gender norms. Sodomy and gender deviance was so heavily policed that they had to create public style executions and even then it persisted, right. So even under the most heavily violent persecution conditions possible for thousands of years, queerness, homosexuality, same sex love, same sex desire, same sex fucking, same sex sex, has persisted. Even in a culture where it was sin and a crime punishable by death.
Chris Rose: 05:56 That brings us to the rise of medicine, where in addition to being a sin and a crime punishable by death, it becomes a mental illness. It becomes a defect, something that is wrong with you that must be fixed with aversion therapy, shock therapy, lobotomy. This culture of sin, crime, illness, persists for thousands of years and brings us into the 1950s and the 1960s. Where after the wars, and there’s a lot of great history about how the world wars and especially World War II, really shook up gender norms and sex culture in the 1950s and the 1960, we start to see the early gay rights movement coming together in America.
Chris Rose: 06:51 A group called the Mattachine Society first formed and in secret rooms with secret mailing lists, under FBI surveillance, these people met and started talking about the fact that they were gay and that they would always be gay, that they couldn’t be corrected. The first gay activist had an apologetic tone to them. They accepted this idea that they were sick and broken, but wanted kind of social pity instead of persecution and that’s where it began.
Chris Rose: 07:24 From there, as others were emboldened to start joining these meetings, the groups grew and started to fracture and we got the homophile movement. A group of early gay activists, again, we’re talking about 1950s, early 1960s, meeting in secret, saying that maybe even it’s okay to be gay. Maybe gay is good. Maybe this is something good about who we are and not … We don’t need to ask for permission, we can embrace it. Maybe we can change the social attitudes about homosexuality. They were bold enough to think about another culture that was possible where homosexuality would be made space for. I’m not sure they could imagine it would be celebrated, but made space for and made to be okay, and not persecuted as a sin, a crime, and an illness.
Chris Rose: 08:24 And I got this framework of sin, crime, and illness from an interview in the Making Gay History podcast, that I love, and I will link again to that in the show notes page, from an early gay activist, from an archived interview from an early lesbian activist, one of the first women to come out as a lesbian publicly declare her love for women, and say, “I am who I am, I think it’s okay, and we’re going to start changing your minds about us.” I want to focus on how powerful this idea is that we can change cultural attitudes and opinions even when they’re institutionalized for thousands of years. It’s powerful.
Chris Rose: 09:09 All right, so, the homophile movement starts meeting, a magazine forms called One Magazine, that starts a national publication talking about and starting to put to paper gay culture. And in cities like New York and San Francisco, and other big cities, gay culture was emerging. Gay bars were emerging. They were often raided by the police, people were rounded up and arrested, brutalized by police. And again, it was often the gender deviants that were on the frontlines. Because one of the things you could be arrested for was public indecency for wearing opposite sex clothing. So, women wearing men’s trousers were arrested. Men wearing any sign of effeminate clothing. So, trans women, especially trans women of color, were on the frontlines of this police enforcement of the social norms of homosexuals being a sin, a crime, an illness.
Chris Rose: 10:14 All right, so this takes us to the early gay culture, organizing in these cities and there’s a bar called the Stonewall Inn, in Greenwich Village in New York City, that is kind of a legendary homosexual bar. The police raided frequently, that is common. Being arrested is part of your life if you are an out gay person in the 1960s New York. Street harassment, police harassment, it’s just part of your daily life. So, what made this night in June 1969 different? It was a hot, sticky night. It was the day of Judy Garland’s funeral. Judy Garland was already an icon in the gay community, singing Somewhere Over the Rainbow, and the day of her funeral there was a lot of social tension in New York City at the time. It was the height of the civil rights era, 1969, New York City, hot, sticky night, the police come to raid Greenwich Village’s Stonewall Inn.
Chris Rose: 11:21 What made this night different than other nights is that the queers in the bar on that night fought back and they said no more. Led by trans women of color, Sylvia Rivera, and Marsha P. Johnson, they fought back against the police, threw rocks and bottles, and this escalated into a three-day riot involving hundreds or thousands of people, where for the first time there was a cacophony of voices, a critical mass of gays. and lesbians. and trans people. and queers of all kinds, saying we’re just not going to take this shit anymore. We are going to organize, we are going to lead ourselves in a movement towards full and equal rights as citizens. And what happened on that night in 1969 was also a lot of media coverage and in general, a public emboldening of gay people.
Chris Rose: 12:22 Again, I just want to pause here to recognize the ways in which the most radical amongst us, the queers, the gender deviants, the trans people of color, the sex workers, who had the least to lose, they started leading a movement and initiating a cultural change that would go on to change the world for all of us. And that is so fucking radical, and righteous, and awesome. So let’s think … That was 1969. We are now 50 years since then. What has happened since Stonewall? If we think about the gender role transformations and the sex culture transformations of the past 50 years, it is dazzling how many changes have occurred and how they impact all of us.
Charlotte Rose: 13:11 Yes, it is astounding to think about the shifts that this has created and the ripples this has created in the world. Of course, for those who are gay, gender variant humans, but also it extends further and straight people are impacted by this shift in culture. When there becomes more room for people to express their gender in a variety of ways that aren’t so constrained by man, woman, and the roles that come along with that, there becomes more space for you to be who you are, whatever that looks like.
Chris Rose: 13:49 I’m just curious as listeners, because I know the vast majority of our listeners are straight identified, but they’re straight identified with enough sexual savviness to have found us, to listen to two queer women talk about sex, and so, I kind of think of you as the most sophisticated and enlightened listeners out there, if I do say so myself. But, you have a certain level of sexual sophistication and so, as you think about the gay liberation movement, the queer liberation movement, where do you situate yourself in that? What are the ways you can identify your life has had more freedom because of the gay rights movement?
Chris Rose: 14:35 And I just want to take a moment. So, after Stonewall, right, there was the 70s disco culture, David Bowie, Freddie Mercury, Elton John, right? Like, the 70s had a certain emergence of queer culture. Meanwhile there are all these fights going on. Gay activists were taking on the institutions to get churches to be more welcoming and challenged the dialog of homosexuality as a sin. They were also taking on institutions like the American Psychological Association, getting them to stop classifying homosexuality as a mental illness. That battle took many years. Were also working on the political front to decriminalize homosexuality and make it illegal to be fired from your job for being gay, for example.
Chris Rose: 15:28 So, we see all of these fronts of political action, and of activism. Meanwhile, what is happening is people are coming out. There is social activism. People are coming out, people are starting to challenge gender roles, women are moving into all parts of the workplace and shaking up gender roles there. As women go into the workplace, parenting becomes more collaborative and we invite men into the emotional experience of fatherhood more deeply. Fashion and music and pop culture start celebrating the diversity of gender and sexual expression.
Chris Rose: 16:10 All of this is happening and then AIDS hits concurrently. And AIDS, in the early 80s, took homosexuality from the sin, crime, illness, into a disease, into a cancer that would kill you. And again, the affirmation of what we were fighting against by this virus that entered the community, it organized the queer community like never before. It made us fight for our lives and solidified queer activism. It’s been named one of the most successful public health campaigns, organized at the grassroots level and it also brought homosexuality into mainstream news.
Chris Rose: 16:55 We saw all these gay men dying and some people looked at those images and thought they’re getting what they deserved. Those gays are getting gay cancer. A lot of other hearts were opened by those images and they saw families grieving their sons and a lot of people’s hearts were opened by AIDS. So, we have that legacy too.
Chris Rose: 17:20 And then that takes us into the 90s and the 2000s, 2010s, right? So, what has happened over the past 30 years? Gay marriage has been one big arm. And that arm of the queer movement says we are normal, we are just like you, and in that normalization of queerness, normal becomes a lot more queer. So that’s one arm of it. In the second arm of it, we have the radical edge. People challenging genders even existence. The radical queers who refuse the institutions of marriage and the don’t want to be normal. They’re questioning normal sanity. That also creates a lot of room for people. Radicals have a very important function in social movements and some of our most celebrated pop icons who just totally blow our minds with what is possible with erotic embodiment.
Chris Rose: 18:20 I’m thinking about people like David Bowie, who was this mainstream, gender-bending, out-of-this-world, icon. People who are brave enough to embody those spaces on the radical fringe and do something different that’s never been seen before, carve out so much space for all of us to be more of who we are, to show new possibilities, to break the molds. But then meanwhile, we’re seeing gay people come out in all different cultures and all different churches, gay people in all different segments of society, come out and be loved by their communities, and again, that normalization of gay people makes normal much more gay.
Chris Rose: 19:09 What do I mean by that? I mean things like as gay people started having families, the question of what makes a family had to be asked. What does a parent even mean? And then we’re forced to reflect on the idea that children have been raised in families of all different kinds forever, and that a family is not just a man and a woman in marriage with children. Sometimes those men go off to war and never come back. Families have always looked really different and humans have taken care of each other, and this idea of the institution of marriage is a construction that can be deconstructed and rebuilt and redesigned.
Chris Rose: 19:55 As queer people started having families and queer men became much more vocal about their non-monogamy, they led the way to say, “We can be in love for 40 years and yes, we have other lovers.” And so, queer men opened a space for us to talk about polyamory and non-monogamy and in the past 10 years, we are seeing so many people who are heterosexual identified, find some breathing room in that category. Find some more space to be more authentically who they are.
Chris Rose: 20:35 As butch lesbians, we’re brave enough to take up space as masculine females and walk through cities with short hair and looking like dykes, and really put their skin on the line to do that, we changed our understanding of what a woman was and what it meant to be a woman, and look like a woman. And now straight women have so many more options of how they can dress and present, and it is not expected that you will wear a dress, and pearls, and gloves, and heels every day. Our social expectations of one another have changed radically, and if we follow all of these trails, so many of them lead back to queer pioneers who threw these institutions of marriage, and family, and gender, and sexual orientation into question.
Chris Rose: 21:31 They forced the question, they force us to look at it and in that investigation, we find that all of us are pretty queer. The only normal is difference, and if we allow that human sexuality to emerge, if we allow ourselves to be who we are, what then? What gifts emerge? What new models are possible? And this is kind of where I want to lead us for the next 50 years. We’re at now the 50 year anniversary of Stonewall. Where will we be at the 100 year anniversary of Stonewall? Some of us will be dead, some of us will have children or grandchildren who will be sitting around and telling the story of the next 50 years of sex culture.
Chris Rose: 22:20 If we can accept the idea that the past 50 years have been shaped by both radicals and extraordinary individuals, but also by every day individuals and all of our daily actions, then we are motivated perhaps for the next 50 years to take our part in shaping sex culture, to find agency and power in the idea that how you embody your sexuality today, and tomorrow, is part of leaving a legacy. You are shaping the sex culture for the next generation. All of us. And for me, I find that thrilling. Because then for me, I’m like what do I want to live into, what possibilities do I want to embody, what do I want to create for the next generation, and then what are the ways I can do that in my daily life?
Charlotte Rose: 23:19 What are some of those ways? I just want to make that more practical. You see so much possibility in these moments. I think for a lot of people they may feel overwhelmed by that, of this question of how can we shape culture daily. What are some of the ways you think about that? What are some of the actions you think people can be taking daily to create and recreate sex culture for each other and for the younger ones that come up behind us?
Chris Rose: 23:52 Right. That’s a big question. I’ll do my best with it. So, there’s the big stuff, right? Like, what policies are you voting for? What representatives are you voting for? What are their sexual politics? What is the cultural position you occupy and how much social power do you have with that position? So, I think the answer is really dependent on who you are in this culture and what actions you can take. But, no matter who you are, and what social position you have, I think we can think about it through the lens of to what degree do I still relate to sexuality as a sin, a crime, an illness. My own sexuality and other people’s sexualities and expressions, to what degree do we still relate to difference as a sin, a crime, an illness? To what degree do we radically accept and have compassion for difference, especially those we don’t understand. And how are your actions aligned with your sexual values?
Chris Rose: 25:02 And so some of this is like how you take up space in public and how you … When I say how you embody. So, and part of this for me is I am visibly queer. I am visibly masculine female. I could choose to grow out my hair, and wear different clothes, and blend right in. I have chosen not to do that because part of my expression is a shaved head, masculine clothes, and I occupy this middle ground which all the new kids are calling non-binary and gender non-conforming. All the sweet, new generation have all this language for it. For me, I’ve always imagine myself straddling a lot of boundaries, being neither male nor female, neither straight nor gay. So for me, a lot of my daily action is just shamelessly embodying my body, showing that this body is capable of joy and love, that I don’t apologize for my body. And that might be a big place to start is to what extent are you apologizing for your sexuality? To what extent are you allowing your sexuality to be seen and honored?
Chris Rose: 26:09 Have you come out yet would be one question for all of our straight listeners. What is there that you could come out about that would break down some shame, break down some stigma, and create more permission and pleasure and opportunity for other people? So, depending on your context again, this might be coming out as having herpes. So when your friends start making herpes jokes, you get up the guts to interrupt them and be like, “Dude, I have herpes, and by the statistics, most of us at this table have herpes. You want to keep making those herpes jokes? Like, get over it dude.” Right? Some of it is interruption or interrupting toxic narratives about rape culture in the locker room. Or, interruption your corporation from continuing to hire straight white guys out of Stanford and saying maybe there’s other people that could do this job better and standing up for people who have different backgrounds than you, right?
Chris Rose: 27:17 A lot of it is standing up for difference, coming out as who you are. So, coming out can look like a lot of different things. You might want to come out as non-monogamous. If you and your wife have threesomes once a year and there’s conversation at your social circle about those dirty pervs, you might want to come out as like, “You know, we’ve been married 35 years and we have threesomes once in a while and there’s nothing wrong with it guys.” You might want to come out as gender deviant. Is there something you are hiding about your gender expression and not showing the world out of shame? Maybe there’s coming outs for all of us to do and in that coming out, we create more possibility for one another. We model this for one another.
Chris Rose: 28:07 I’ll tell a quick story that kind of shows these different social change trajectories in action. So, I was at Target the other day, and it’s situated in a mall near our house. A few years ago I was seeing a movie at this mall and I had parked at kind of a weird entrance, and after the movie, which was a Quentin Tarantino incredibly violent movie, I was walking to my car and a car full of teenage boys kind of cornered me in the parking lot and were starting to get violent. I escaped that moment. But it is one of the many moments of queer harassment and violence I carry in my body. Some of those have been actual attacks and assaults, some of them have been threats. This was a threat.
Chris Rose: 28:50 A few years later, I am at Target, I am shopping. A group of high school boys walks by me and in an attempt to impress his friends, one of them calls me a fat dyke, in kind of like a threatening, violent tone. In that moment, I could have felt shame and fear and I did feel those things, and it was shocking to me that it as a grown-ass woman, a young boy can harass me in Target and make me feel shame and fear, but that’s within the cultural context of having been attacked and assaulted for my queerness, right?
Chris Rose: 29:25 That’s internalized homophobia. That’s internalized violence that people in marginalized groups walk with. We have to honor that. So, I’m there activated in my shame and fear, but I also have enough confidence at this point in who I am, to be like, “Yeah, I’m a fat dyke.” And so, as they were walking away, I called out, “Do better. You got to do better than that, kid.” And I heard his friends shut him down. Like, “What a jerk you were.” They kind of hit him and laughed and went on. I saw them later in the store as I came around a corner, and the boy that had harassed me looked deeply bashful. And I walked out feeling kind of victorious, because I had confronted a moment of harassment, stood up for myself, and his peers backed me up. It was uncool to harass the dyke on Friday night at Target.
Chris Rose: 30:26 So, what do we see there? We see cultural change. These young boys, it’s no longer cool. They have family cultures perhaps. They’ve seen shows, some of their own friends have started to come out. Teenage culture is no longer, for that little cluster of boys, is not longer affirming homophobic violence. It’s saying not cool, we’re not going to do it anymore. What’s also happened for me is I have enough social confidence to stand up for who I am and take up space and if they had harassed me again, I would have gone and gotten a manager. And that manager would have backed me up.
Chris Rose: 31:05 The institutions of power are shifting and when we talk about power, this is like maybe a huge, nother conversation, but power lives in our day-to-day actions. Power exists between every two individuals that are talking. Part of the queer liberation movement is no longer allowing sexual norms and gender norms to occupy a position of so much power over us. That is what the thousands of years of sexual violence were trying to do. Assert power over sexuality and over gender expression as social control and there’s a whole body of queer theory looking at the use of sexuality as social control. But all you need to do to embrace that is to think about homosexuality and gender deviance, again, as a sin, a crime, and an illness and how those narratives control how all of us behave. Who we are allowed to be, and who we are allowed to love, who we are allowed to desire, what kinds of sexual desires men and women are allowed to have. This is still in all of us. This is all of the stuff we are unpacking week to week. All of the excavation of sexual shame. Like, all of this is related and all of this is what the queer liberation movement is for. It’s not just so gay people can get married. It’s to dismantle the power that uses sexuality and gender as social control.
Chris Rose: 32:46 And in doing so, it’s right alongside the liberation movements that are unpacking race, and wealth, and the hoarding of resources along certain strata. Everywhere you see categories getting made. That is for power. So, this liberation movement is inherently tied up in the liberation of all people.
Chris Rose: 33:09 Okay, so, 50 years since Stonewall. Where are you at? You are listening to this podcast. You are looking for more sexual freedom. You are looking to embrace a more pleasurable relationship with sexuality and I just wanted to place that quest, for all of us as individuals, within the social context of this liberation movement that has been happening for well over 50 years, that has been led by really brave people, willing to do the work to break down these social institutions and change social attitudes. You have benefited from it, so reap those benefits, take stock of where you are in your sexuality and gender expression, and let’s all be emboldened to keep coming out, to keep living more vibrantly, to keep creating possibilities and to keep sticking up for other people. So much of this is to stand up for the sexual rights and the expression and the safety of all bodies.
Chris Rose: 34:15 And so, if you’re looking for a way to get involved in this, if you want to start shaping the next 50 years, you can start with yourself and your own sexual liberation and then also start standing up for the sexual liberation of all bodies and there is plenty of work to be done on that front, especially now because these rights, reproductive rights, the rights of queer people, are under fire by our current administration. We know this, it is visible, it is tactical, and again, why? Again We can look at power and sex, and yet, why is Trump even bothering to attack sexual freedoms? Social control, fear, shame as social control.
Chris Rose: 34:54 Okay, so we continue to resist. We continue to lead the way into a better future for all of us. We continue this movement. We continue the liberation movements, plural, and we continue each of our daily investment in experiencing little tastes of sexual freedom, little moments of feeling safe, and feeling pleasure and feeling love, and using that pleasure as fuel to create the sex culture we want to see emerge over the next 50 years. How’s that for a mission?
Charlotte Rose: 35:37 It is full. It is a rich history. It informs everything that we do in these moments and it’s invisible sometimes to register and to really notice how much the history, and the bravery, and the courage of people in the past have influenced our every day actions today and give us freedoms and permissions that we are not aware of. It’s powerful to reflect on. So, happy Pride to everyone.
Chris Rose: 36:05 Woohoo.
Charlotte Rose: 36:06 If you have a parade in your town, feel free to go. If you have kids, feel free to bring them. And in doing that, you are becoming a family that is making a safe space for people to be gay, whether that is your kids and you don’t know yet, or it’s your kids’ friends that then they give permission to. Sometimes you don’t know the impact of being a permission giver and being somebody that is saying, “This is okay. This is great. Look how fun that is.” And that you are somebody that comes alone to celebrate and support other people’s experience. So that is an opportunity that you can go for or else just speak kindly about gays to your family, to your friends, as you’re going about in the world. You sometimes really just never know the impact and the ripple effect that being someone who is okay with sexuality in all forms. You sometimes just don’t know the positive effect that that can have on your community, people close to you or people further away. It’s amazing. It’s amazing.
Chris Rose: 37:12 It’s true, and in all of the feedback we get for this podcast, one of the recurring themes is how nice it is to have non-judgmental community about sex. And for most people that’s just a one-way listening relationship, but just having us talk about sex in a relaxed, non-judgemental way, has been really life-changing for a lot of people and it strikes me that we can all do that.
Charlotte Rose: 37:39 For each other?
Chris Rose: 37:40 Yeah.
Charlotte Rose: 37:40 Yeah.
Chris Rose: 37:41 The 10,000 listeners of this podcast can all be deputized. I hereby deputize you to just be a non-judgmental presence about sex and sexuality.
Charlotte Rose: 37:53 And that is a very, very, very, very, very powerful act.
Chris Rose: 37:57 And I already know, like, we have listener friends in Oklahoma who are starting a queer support group in their rural Oklahoma town. There are people in … There are people all over the world who are using what they have learned here to then share it with people in their community and we will continue to find ways to support you in doing that.
Chris Rose: 38:24 we are headed into some adventures. So, tomorrow I get in a car and drive to Philadelphia for the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors, and Therapists annual conference, ASECT. It’s the largest gathering of sex therapists and educators and I will be there in my Pleasure Mechanics uniform. We have stickers and resources going out in all 850 gift bags to encourage sex therapists to join our community, share our resources, contribute to our resources and I’ll be onsite for four days, talking to them. I’m so excited. And then I drive home and the next day our family goes to Canada. Those of you who have been with us for a few years know that we have a special little cabin in rural Canada where we go every year to rejuvenate, and reset, and just be in the lake and get offline for two solid weeks. We will not be on our computers much. So, we will take a break from the podcast for the rest of June, and we will be back with you in July with new episodes of Speaking of Sex with the Pleasure Mechanics.
Chris Rose: 39:40 If you are hungry for more during this break, be sure to come over to PleasureMechanics.com and explore our full archive of episodes waiting for you or enroll in one of our online courses and uplevel your erotic skills with us. You can find it all at PleasureMechanics.com. I’m Chris …
Charlotte Rose: 40:00 I’m Charlotte.
Chris Rose: 40:01 We are the Pleasure Mechanics …
Charlotte Rose: 40:03 Wishing you a lifetime of pleasure.